Rachel Bruno: A Mother’s Nightmare, A Fight for Justice

Dr. Chloe: Rachel, it is so nice to meet you. Let me just tell you, I loved your book. It made me cry in the best way. A true story and as a psychologist who admires people and studies people that are what psychologists call high-functioning people, meaning people who go above and beyond being able to meet their own basic needs, but they even find ways to take challenges and convert them into growth experiences. Your book did that so beautifully. So just as a reader, it was very well written.

Dr. Chloe: As a psychologist, again, I thought there was a lot there as far as wisdom and as a mother, that is where the tears came from. Obviously, people who are listening to this may not have read your book. So I've been talking a lot. So I want to, if you don't mind to just share in a nutshell, the story of this amazing book.

Rachel: Yes. First of all, thank you so much for all your kind words. That means a lot to me. This story basically started in 2015 when both my children, then seven weeks old and 20 months old, were seized by Child Protective Services because my seven-week-old son was critically injured in the care of his nanny.

Rachel: Now she didn't tell me. I woke up at about four o'clock in the morning and screaming baby. I go into the room. She shows me an empty bottle and she says, I just fed him, he's really gassy. And I figure, okay enough babies get gassy. And I had my 20-month-old sleeping directly across the hall, a screaming baby at 4 AM.

Rachel: So I tell her why don't you just go home and I'll take it from here. So I unswaddled him looking for rashes, leakages, anything you could think of with a newborn baby. No physical signs of anything, just gave him skin to skin. And he fell asleep on me. I'm like, okay he just wanted your mommy.

Rachel: So three hours later, I wake up to him screaming again. I'm like, okay, last feeding. Now you're hungry. Tried to feed him and he would not have it. I had never had any issues with him nursing before, but I think I had tunnel vision with what she told me that he was gassy. So I'm like, okay, might still be gassy.

Rachel: Nursing strike, colic all of the above Dr. Google? And it wasn't until six hours later that I take him to the emergency room after speaking to the pediatrician and giving him the symptoms that I can't see him. I need to see somebody. The kid is not eating. The kid is not sleeping. I don't know what the heck is wrong with this kid.

Rachel: So they're like, okay, take him to the emergency room and I took him there and that's where I got the diagnosis. That he had a cranial fracture and an intracerebral blood hemorrhage, and that he was going to need emergency surgery right then and there. And I'm with my mom. I'm with my 20-month-old son.

Rachel: We're all at the hospital together. My husband is out of state on a business trip, and my world is just spinning, right? I go from a gassy baby to now my son is in some life-threatening situation. I'm signing all the forms. You get blood transfusions, and I'm like, I don't care what you have to do to save my baby. Save my baby. 

Rachel: And off they go, wheeling him off into the operating room. Four hours later, surgery went clinically well. No doctor tells me everything went clinically well. We were able to drain the blood. We were able to fix the fracture. And my first question, is he going to be okay? Is he going to be brain-damaged?

Rachel: And the doctor tells me we really don't know, due to his young age. And we really don't know whether he's going to live the next 48 hours. He received three bags of blood. He was having about 15 seizures an hour following the surgery. So we currently have him in a medically induced coma until we can figure out the right cocktail to control the seizures.

Rachel: But he's being monitored. He's stable. I will take you upstairs. And again, all this information being thrown at me. I see my baby, seemingly lifeless baby. If you've ever been in a PICU or in an intensive care unit, the machines are beeping. Very quiet, glass, very somber, very cold. And I grabbed my baby's hand they usually grip your finger right back. He didn't do it. 

Rachel: And I just remember praying right there. I said, God, I don't care if I have to dedicate the rest of my life to taking care of my baby, I will. Just don't take him away from me. And in that moment, I felt the Holy Spirit, what Christians call the Holy Spirit, talk to me and say, He's mine. I gave Him to you. Nobody's taking Him away from you. 

Rachel: And at that point, a sigh of relief, I said, You're right, Lord. No better place for Him to be than in your hands. He's yours. And I felt peace. Peace that surpasses all understanding. I went into logistics mode, into mom mode. My husband was out of state. My 20-month-old is bouncing off the walls. My mom is there with me. Okay, you're going to go to sleep at grandma's house. My mom leaves, texting my husband everything is okay. He's on his way from the airport. And next thing I know, there's a knock on the door. And they pulled the door open. It's a glass door. I see a man in a uniform, in a police uniform, and a woman with a clipboard.

Rachel: And the police officer says, Ms. Bruno, can we speak to you? I said, yes. It's weird, what's a police officer doing here, but okay. And he tells me, what happened to your son was worse than getting struck in the head by a bullet. Okay, what does that mean? And he said, we would like to help you. We want to help you figure out how this happened to your son.

Rachel: And me processing this, I'm like, a bullet? What else would a bullet to the head do but kill somebody? I'm like, are you implying that this woman tried to kill my son? And that's what I had in my head. And I'm like I can't accuse somebody, right? I don't know that. I don't know. I don't know what happened.

Rachel: And that's what they kept asking me over and over. What do you think happened? I don't know. I wasn't there. What might have happened? I don't know. I wasn't there. And he's like, why did you take so long to bring him to the emergency room? Because I didn't know what was wrong with him. She told me he was gassy.

Rachel: Why did you bring him to a hospital in Orange County when you live in LA County? This is the children's hospital that I know. Why didn't you call 911? Because I thought he was gassy. And the social worker, do you have any other children? I do. What are their ages? Where are they? I tell her. And she says, is it okay if we go look at him?

Rachel: Now again, me thinking these people are here to help me. I have nothing to hide. I called my mom. I said, yeah, he's probably asleep by now. And she said, we're not going to wake him. We just want to make sure he's okay. Okay, she leaves at that point, police officer stays with me, asking me some questions about my husband, where he is, he was on his way back from the airport straight to the hospital.

Rachel: And once he got to the hospital, police officer immediately pulls my husband to another room and asked me to go to another room because the detectives are on their way and they would like to speak to me as well. Okay, hindsight, we can see what was going on. But at that moment in time, I had absolutely no idea.

Rachel: Never, ever would I have suspected that I was prime suspect number one in this child injury. Detectives show up at midnight. They interview me until about 2 o'clock in the morning. Now, mind you, I'd been up since 4 o'clock in the morning with the baby, so it's been almost 24 hours. And I tell them I really need to get some sleep.

Rachel: I don't want to have any seizures, little step back. I do have epilepsy, which is why I had a nanny to begin with. I needed somebody to take care of my son at night. So they were very friendly, gave me their business cards, said, okay, we'll talk to you later. I go to bed, I wake up at about 10 o'clock and my husband is just blank staring at me like my first instinct is to look like the baby is there. He's alive. The machines are beeping. Mike, what happened? And he tells me they took David. David is my 20-month-old son who was asleep at my mom's house. So what do you mean they took David? Who? Where? Why? They lied to me. What? What? 

Rachel: And he said, yeah, they showed up at your mom's house at two o'clock in the morning with three police cars. And they took David. And I called my mom. I'm like, what happened? And she said, yeah, they came in here, walked through the house, opened the refrigerator, turned on all the lights, asked me where David was. I showed the social worker. She turns on the lights, wakes him up, asks me to undress him. And she looked at him. No bruises, right? No physical signs of abuse, but then turns around and tells my mom we're taking him. My mom says, no, you're not. And social worker says, if you don't give him to us, we are going to arrest you.

Rachel: And the three police officers all standing right there, don't say a word. And my mom says, if I go to jail, do I take him with me? Social worker says, no, he's going to go to foster care and you're going to have a criminal record. You're not going to be able to care for him. So my mom says that in her mind at that time, she thought it would be less traumatic to hand my son to the social worker as opposed to having him ripped from her arms.

Rachel: So she gave my son to the social worker and they drive off in the middle of the night, not telling us where they're taking him, why they're taking him, what the heck is going on. And I'm listening to this story. My husband said he'd been calling social services all morning and they would not return our calls. We did not know where our son was. I start calling lawyers. Conquer and divide here. I called about 10 different lawyers until I found a lawyer who would speak to me and who knew what the heck was going on. 

Dr. Chloe: Just to interject here for a moment for listeners to like, if you are listening to this and you are a parent I'll share with you after reading Rachel's book, going through what she experienced vicariously, this horrible nightmare on so many levels.

Dr. Chloe: And one of the things that she pointed out in the book is that when it was time to start finding a lawyer to help her in this nightmare. Naturally, she didn't happen to have criminal lawyers on speed dial or family court lawyers on speed dial. Most of us don't. Again, part of the high-functioning profile is typically somebody who doesn't have a lot of interactions with law enforcement because high-functioning people typically function well in society and they're able to respect the law and they don't act out violently.

Dr. Chloe: And I frankly, after reading your book, I actually reached out to a lawyer and I think I don't have, I've never had that nightmare happened to me, but I thought I want to have met a lawyer and I explained to him that I read your book and I said just in case I'm ever in a horrible situation, I want to have somebody that has known me before and, so I paid for just an hour of consultation with a local lawyer because I started after reading your book, I started hearing about other people that have had this happen, which was another thing I even wanted to ask you about was just how you got through the shame and the stigma. How awful. 

Dr. Chloe: But anyway, like I said, I just wanted to interject because Rachel's story just in a nutshell is basically that her children were taken away through no fault of her own. And just so everybody knows the end, of the story is that Rachel was awarded over a million dollars by the state of California because they ultimately, through the legal system, they were forced to admit that they made a terrible mistake and that they really mistreated Rachel Bruno. 

Dr. Chloe: And so just I'll admit again, and part of the stigma is that when you first hear a parent talking about that they've been accused of abuse, but that they didn't do it and that the police have their kids, for me as somebody that you know, previously had a just a general knee jerk reaction to respect the police.

Dr. Chloe: I might've been skeptical. And so I just want people to hear Rachel's story, knowing that she was legally vindicated and awarded over a million dollars, which I believe Rachel is actually even using. She's gone and testified before Congress. She wasn't in it to get the money and buy Gucci bags.

Dr. Chloe: She was, she took that money and I believe has put it into a fund that is helping to protect parents from this horrible nightmare and to work on the mess that is CPS, that is Child Protective Services. And we deserve better, not only parents, but kids, because if CPS is focused on the wrong people for the wrong reasons. It not only hurts those families that are inappropriately targeted, but it hurts the families and the children that are not getting the attention that they need because CPS has a bee in their bonnet for some other family. Anyway, Rachel, so back to you. 

Rachel: Yeah. I called the lawyers and that was the most shocking thing I'd ever heard in my life. He told me, come in here and I'm giggling and he tells me, sit down. You have no idea what you're in for. And I'm like, what are you talking about? You can't come in here and just take my son. Where's my son? And where do I go get him? And he's you're not getting your children back. I'm like, what are you talking about? No, I'm not getting my kids back. 

Rachel: He's what happened to your son is criminal. You are facing 15 years in jail and a hundred thousand dollar bail if they decide to charge you. And I'm like, I didn't do this. And he's I believe you. It doesn't matter. What do you mean it doesn't matter? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? What happened to our constitution? What about the nanny? And he said, this is family court. They don't follow constitutional law. What other law is there? And he said they can do whatever they deem is in the best interest of the child. And that little motto is what every child welfare agency will use against you, right? Against the parents. 

Dr. Chloe: Which sounds nice, by the way. Okay. So as a clinical psychologist, I've had training, I'm a mandated reporter, all the things. And it sounds nice like Oh we're just doing whatever's in the best interest of the child. That's our only goal. It sounds nice. Except the question becomes Says who? It was not in the best interest of the child.

Dr. Chloe: I just want to share with people the moment truly, I just began to weep as I read your book was Rachel was finally able to at least get supervised visits, which again, by the way, she has full custody. Everything's over now with this horrible ordeal, but it lasted for, I believe more than a year.

Rachel: Six months.

Dr. Chloe: But at one point she was able to get, during the process, got supervised visitation with, I believe, like a two-year-old. And so the most heartbreaking part. Especially with what I know as a psychologist is that at that age, separating from your mom is traumatic, especially when you haven't seen her for a long time.

Dr. Chloe: So this two-year-old hasn't seen mom for a long time. Rachel shows up for the supervised visit with her husband, the child's father. The child is initially a little bit flat or rattled because he's a little overwhelmed. Everything's weird. He hasn't seen mom in a long time. Just as soon as the child begins to soften up and get in sync with mom, the visitation worker or whatever says, okay, that's it, your time's up.

Dr. Chloe: And then Rachel is forced because if she doesn't, she'll go to jail and like never be able to see her kids. She has to play by their rules. She then has to kiss her child goodbye and turn her back on the child as he's screaming and saying, basically, WTF mom, I thought we just got back together. And then mom's leaving again and Rachel had to repeat this nightmare over and over.

Dr. Chloe: It was either that or not see her kid at all. And I just, I don't know how you, I don't know how you withstood that. Again I admire you that you could do that. And I know that you leaned on your faith, which I'm a Christian as well. As a psychologist, we know that religiosity the, degree to which someone is religious, It's actually a protective factor for mental health, so I'm sharing this because I think many listeners may be Christian. Many listeners may be actively not Christian and that's everybody has their own way. But I just want to highlight that however you feel about religion, from a mental health perspective, t's a recognized protective factor in mental health. Rachel, thank goodness used that for herself to keep her strength. 

Rachel: Right? And as I was court-ordered to take child abuse classes, parenting classes and individual counseling. And my counselor was court-appointed appointed, was not a Christian. And these were some of the conversations that I had to have with her. And one of the first questions she asked me is, how is this affecting your identity?

Rachel: They're calling you a criminal and you are a mother, you are a wife, you are a daughter. How is this affecting you? And I'm like of course it's painful, very painful that people would try to label me that way, but it's really not affecting my identity in the sense that I know who I am, right?

Rachel: Yes, I'm a mother. Yes, I'm a wife. Yes, I'm a daughter. But first and foremost, I'm a daughter of the most high and He knows me, He knows the truth and He's got me in His hand. He's not gonna he's not going to fail me. 

Dr. Chloe: How did you deal with anger at God or even like having your faith shaken? I have to admit, like that would be one of the darkest, most challenging times. And I could see a person saying things like, God, if you're real, why are you letting this happen to me? God, I'm angry at you. How did you go through the hardest stuff as far as even vis-a-vis God? 

Rachel: Yeah. I look through the totality of my life. My life has never been easy. My father passed away, when I was nine months old, from a drunk driving accident. My mom was a single mother and a widow at 28 years old, and we were from Brazil and like 2 years later, a church here in America asked my mom if she wanted to come do Bible school here. So she came, we left everything we knew in Brazil, didn't speak the language, didn't have anything, but our church family here.

Rachel: And then after that, we went back to Brazil again, lost everything I had here, had to start all over again in Brazil. Having my seizure disorder, I think that was probably one time that I was the most mad at God was at my seizures. I had them. I started when I was about 5 years old. And at 16 we all get our driver's license. We all want our independence. We all want to be free. And I could not have that. And I, Oh, I was angry. I was mad at the world during that time. Okay. I hated it. I could not understand it. Why don't you cure me? Why don't you heal me? What the heck? 

Rachel: And my mom was always, Peter prayed for God to remove the spine from his flesh and God never did. Maybe God is trying to teach you something through this and as a teenager, no rebellious teenager in one year out the other. But it's really not. It stays in there. It stays in there throughout your life. And I think at one point when maturing and growing, I just told God, I'm like, okay, fine.

Rachel: This is just something I'm gonna have to live with for the rest of my life. It is what it is. If I have to take the bus everywhere to go to school, to go to work to do whatever I need to do, you give me the strength to do this. And I'm going to do this. I'm not going to let this disease control my life, right? And I think that's when you surrender, right? You have to know when to accept certain things that you can't change. It is what it is. 

Dr. Chloe: Yes. Okay. But I get that about a seizure. Okay. And I'll tell you, my life has been no picnic either. I was an emancipated minor when I was 16 and had all kinds of nutty, crazy stuff in my life. Thank goodness I'm in a much more stable place now. I have been for many decades, but I've been through the nuttiest things and I have I've always said some people say that everybody thinks about suicide sometimes, and my answer is always no, actually, not me, like never, ever, like it would just never occur to me.

Dr. Chloe: But since becoming a mom, I've just said, you know what? I can't believe I'm saying this, but if something were to happen to my child, you might have to actually put me on that suicide watch. And so I'm seeing Rachel that I hear you that your life was no picnic. Mine wasn't either, but there's something about somebody taking your child.

Dr. Chloe: And then that scene I described of your child that was screaming, mommy, don't leave. And you had to leave and you knew it was not only hurting you, but it was torturing your child. That's a whole other level, I think, than anything else probably that we, I could imagine in your life prior or for me as well.

Dr. Chloe: The worst thing, worst day in my life has been bad, but there's nothing that could be as bad as me having to witness my child essentially being abused. So I feel like that must have been different for you. 

Rachel: There were a lot of tears. A lot of tears.

Dr. Chloe: But how did you handle that with God? 

Rachel: But God, He always showed up. Like even through all this stuff that I've been through in my life before, it may not have been how I wanted it when I wanted but He did eventually always show up. My seizures again were controlled. I prayed about it for 20 years. It took 20 years for them to get under control and for me to live my life.

Rachel: And I decided I didn't have children until all this stuff was under control. So he always did show up. I knew that He would always show up. And again, I know the flesh side, of course, these are my children. I love my children. They are my children, but God gave them to me. And he's ultimately the one who's going to take care of them that prayer I said at the hospital bedside. I meant it. They are Yours. He's Yours. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, that's liberating. I see what you're saying there. So you, thought about whose child is this really? And can I ask, did you, did it shake your faith at any moment? Have you ever had your faith shaken? 

Rachel: Not at this stage in my life, no. I think I was pretty solid in my faith.

Rachel: My faith is what held it together. I talk about it in my book. Like, all the Bible verses from when you were in kindergarten start coming back to you. And the things like, Your grace is enough. Is it really right? I never lived through anything like that. And then here I am living proof.

Rachel: I'm like, it is enough, right? I can do this. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I don't understand what is going on. I don't know why this is happening, but I trust you. And it's a crazy experience. It really is. It's a surreal supernatural experience. I can't explain it in human terms.

Dr. Chloe: I believe you. Yeah. And honestly, that's part of the reason I'm asking you about it because it was so beautiful in your book, the way that you did. Demonstrate the way that the scriptures got you through it, that your, faith community got you through it your family and all of those things, I believe are extensions of God as it's part of why God commands us to be in fellowship and to store up His word in our heart.

Dr. Chloe: I just, I get emotional just thinking about what you went through, but also the way that you dealt with it and the way that you put it into that book. So I guess that was one of my next questions. I have to keep moving just cause I know we don't have all day. I don't have you all day.

Dr. Chloe: I wish I did, but just to keep it moving. When and how did you say to yourself, I'm going to write a book? When and how did you say to yourself, how did you end up testifying before Congress? Because you, obviously, did take this horrible event and through the grace of God, convert it into something, believe it or not, that almost feels beautiful that like you're turning it into a holy battle.

Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. And there was a turning point. I think it was exactly I was living with my pastor's wife at this point, cause I'd been kicked out of my house. And they wouldn't let me live with my husband because he got custody of my children. While the case was open, I was not allowed to be at the house and somebody called me that day, somebody very close to me and they said, Rachel, one word keeps coming to my head and it's repent. 

Rachel: And I'm like, repent. I then again, the Bible stories from Sunday school come back. I felt like Job at that moment, right? Where his friends are like, what did you do? You must have done something to deserve this. But I didn't get defensive. I didn't let it affect me. I just said, okay thank you. And I got up and later that night, I prayed about it.

Rachel: I said, okay, God, whose sin? Was it me? Was it my husband? Was it my parents? What is this word? And again, the same feeling, like that same voice that I heard at the hospital telling me He's mine. That same voice told me Nobody, my daughter. It’s just this evil world we live in.  It's the broken world we live in, and it's been broken since the day I've created it. It was one of the first things the devil tried to destroy was the family pain and able, Adam and Eve.

Rachel: Everybody since the day I created it, the devil has been trying to destroy the family, but it's not going to be in your case. I will use your story for good. And again a lot of Christian heritage in my past, there was a time when my husband and I actually had a prophetic word. If you've gone to these churches where they prophesy over you, there was a prophecy before we ever had children.

Rachel: We were newlyweds. And the prophecy said, there is going to be a time when I'm going to remove my veil of protection from you, and you will be hit hard, but fear not, I've already taken care of the children, the house, and the education. So this was told to us 10 years prior, before we had ever had children, before nothing.

Rachel: And that immediately came to my mind oh my God, this is it. This is what's happening right now. And you will use this story. You will use this story for good. Your pain is not in vain. All for my glory. And I just said, okay, here I am. Send me. 

Dr. Chloe: And how did you end up from there in front of Congress? 

Rachel: Just by doing the interviews. I started writing the books. I started reaching out to lawyers. I started reaching out to this community on social media. Believe it or not, there's a million people on social media who are talking about this. One of them, I was in California 2020 pandemic. I think that was a straw that broke the back of a lot of people, a lot of Californians.

Rachel: I ended up moving to Tennessee and one of the biggest advocates for this lives in Tennessee. And her name is Connie Reguli. She lives 10 minutes from me now, and I reached out to her. I met her in person. She's the one organizing all the D. C. trips. She's like I would love for you to come and for you to tell your story. Because it hits different for me as an attorney trying to tell these people all the legal side versus them hearing it from your mouth. I went to that first thing and I made everybody cry. 

Dr. Chloe: I bet. Oh, my goodness. Everybody listening, please if you just it's an amazing book for whatever reason, I know some people that say that they struggle to get in touch with their emotions.

Dr. Chloe: I defy anybody to read this book and not get emotional. So even if you have no interest in the topic, read the book to get in touch with your emotions. But I just, I think from a policy and from a family standpoint, it's so important and it's so hard-hitting.

Dr. Chloe: As you said, there's this like a whole subculture, a community of people that have had this happen to them to the point, as I said, where once they started learning about your story, I actually called a lawyer myself because I realized this is happening to good people. And there's this awful money machine behind it, that the more children that they can get into their system, the more dollars that they get.

Dr. Chloe: And so what's “best for the child”, they may have this financially skewed view of it. It's amazing. Now, this is just something I have to ask because I've been wondering, did you ever get clarity about the nanny, like whatever actually happened? Did she just disappear into the night? 

Rachel: No, I have Facebook stalked her and I did get a private investigator. I had to get a private investigator while the case was open and the only thing we discovered was that she was married to a police officer when this all happened. And my private investigator was a retired FBI. And he told me like, this is code blue. They're not going to go after her.

Dr. Chloe: That's right. I remember that now in the book. So the book again is called Fractured Hope. And @rachelbrunospeaks is most of your social media handles. I'll make sure to link those below. So even if you don't feel like reading a book, you can follow Rachel on social media.

Dr. Chloe: It's pretty spicy. I enjoy it. Rachel has a way of presenting some of these, she's now advocating and helping other women in courtroom situations. She has posted some videos of CPS Child Protective Services workers in somebody's house and essentially trying to corral and shape that situation.

Dr. Chloe: And, the woman knows how to answer back and stuff. It's very interesting. And again it's, such a shame because that CPS Child Protective Services, by definition, they're supposed to be there to help and to protect children. But as with most things with big government anybody who's even tried to just go get a driver's license, right? We, know what that experience is or go to the post office and try to send a package nothing in the government seems to work right. 

Rachel: And they have a very perverse financial incentive like you said once we start putting numbers on people's lives, that cannot lead to a good situation, a good outcome.

Dr. Chloe: No, but I don't understand. Even if they want to get those dollars, and the more kids they get, the more dollars they get, why can't they at least just go after legitimately abused children? Do you think that they're unable to just simply accurately figure it out? Or do you think that there's some sinister reason why they seem to constantly be getting the wrong targets?

Rachel: Usually the children that really need the intervention they're damaged, Dr. Chloe, they're really damaged. They have been traumatized and abused, and they're really difficult to deal with. Most foster families are not capable of dealing with somebody that has this type of trauma. So they call it not placeable.

Rachel: The child is not placeable. They will, sometimes they will intervene and then they will place it with the foster family and three months later the foster family says, I can't, we can't deal with this child, take him back. So the child will go to another one. No, we can't deal with this child either, take him back. So this poor child just keeps copying from home to home to home. 

Dr. Chloe: Ironically, it's the well-adjusted children from stable homes that are easy pickings, essentially, for CPS to take and start shuffling around because it's, ironically, these are organized and families that meet their options and play by the rules of CPS, making it easier for CPS to do that.

Rachel: That's the thing. They go at a fit parent who we'll jump through any hoop. Whereas if you're a drug addict, whereas if you're an alcoholic, you've already given up, right? You've already chosen your addiction over your family. 

Dr. Chloe: Wow. What a warped system. Now, one more question though, because again I truly loved your book. It's embarrassing how few books I actually finished, but like I actually read this one cover to cover and have even just, I, it was so poignant. So I'm curious, is there an audiobook version as well? Because I know a lot of people like audiobooks. 

Rachel: There is not. I will still need to work on how to read this book without crying.

Dr. Chloe: I just encourage you to put it on an audiobook because there are some people that just aren't going to connect otherwise. And it's such a good book. I want everyone to read it. Fractured Hope by Rachel Bruno. Such a good book. 

Rachel: Thank you.

Dr. Chloe: Thank you so much, Rachel. It's been a pleasure. And I hope everybody does check you out on social media as well as the book. And we'll link all of that below. 

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me on. 

Dr. Chloe: Thank you.