A Father’s Triumph: Harrison Tinsley Wins Custody Battle Over Forced Gender Transition

Dr. Chloe: I guess then my question is, I have so many questions, but part of what I like to do on this show is highlight people that have gone through or done really incredible things and look at the coping strategies and ways of personal resources that they use to get through all of this. So how did you learn to trust women again? Because if I were you and I went through that, it'd be very hard to trust a woman again. 

Harrison: Yeah. I mean, obviously that's like a fear and doubt that you have, you know, scared of something bad happening again. But the reality is, is it's not. You have to fight through it. You know, I did a lot of exercise, a lot of reading, I listened to music, I make music events.

Harrison: So it really means a lot to me and helps me get through things. But you know, you just have to dig deep inside yourself and realize that if you've never, you know, put yourself out there and you're never brave again, then you'll never find love again. And sure you risk having your heart broken, but you also go have the chance of finding something beautiful and incredible. And I feel so blessed and thankful. Yeah, I just, it's always been really important to me to, like, have my own family and little love of my life. It's just always been a dream of mine. So I wasn't going to let any fear or doubt stop me from going for that. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, that's great that you didn't let the fear stop you. But my guess is that you also let the experience inform you, right? Because from what I understand, when you were, and tell me if I'm wrong, I'm calling you boyfriend - girlfriend, and I know that she ended the relationship abruptly when she was pregnant, but that doesn't mean that you were necessarily, truly boyfriend - girlfriend. It could have been like hookup partners or whatever. I don't know. 

Harrison: We were like dating boyfriend - girlfriend. 

Dr. Chloe: Okay, so you were boyfriend - girlfriend, and from what I've heard in your previous interviews and sorry, by the way, one other like little bit of background I just want to share for anyone listening is again, that this mother started hinting at trans issues from the time that the baby was in utero, and appears to have been actually really pushing a trans ideology identity on the child. For example, she took him to Disney World and would not let him ride on any of the rides unless he wore the princess shoes, you know. 

Dr. Chloe: So I think many of us may even have different opinions. You know, for example, if you have a child that's expressing a wish to be the opposite gender. And there's different ways people have of thinking about that. But in this situation, the child was actually objecting and the mom was really trying to kind of impose this on the child. So I think all of us can agree that that would not be right. 

Harrison: I have two things to say to that really quick. I mean, the first one is, yeah, Sawyer's always adamantly said he's a boy. He'll, he gets upset if you say anything else, he's never bought into it. And I'm so thankful for that. I'm so thankful to have been able to be there for him to guide him and love him. And just that he never bought into it. I think that, you know, children are very observant and it's really clear to them, you know, the difference between boys and girls. And sort of the most beautiful difference we have in this world is how we work together.

Harrison: But the other thing is, is I'm not sure that even if your child was expressing, you know, doubts about their gender or curiosity about this gender stuff that that would be appropriate to play into anyways, because they also express things like, as I'm spider man, you don't take them to the buildings in New York and they go, okay, swing to the next one. They say, like, I'm a pirate. You don't, you know, chop their leg off or poke their eye out and where I put an eye patch, but for this one thing. We are actually playing into what kids say and even going as far as to give them puberty blockers that are irreversible and even do surgeries where they remove healthy body parts from kids. And I don't really think that's okay in any context. 

Dr. Chloe: No, I actually agree with you, Harrison, personally. But I just wanted to say that there might be people listening that see things differently. And so in the interest of trying to find common ground with our everybody's listeners, I think that probably we can all agree that a child who's actually specifically saying, I'm not trans, definitely doesn't need to be put into that. But as a clinical psychologist, I actually agree with you that there's different ways of handling gender dysphoria. And just like we don't collude with an anorexic's false belief that they are underweight, we try to help them to understand and love the body that they're in.

Dr. Chloe:  I think that that should be extended, you know, as well. But nevertheless, even if people see that issue differently we can all agree that if a child is saying, Hey, like I'm a boy, that there's something really strange for that boy child to have a parent saying, no, in fact that you're a girl. Since you did go on to partner again and marry, I get that you didn't allow fear to stop you, but we do allow past experiences to inform our behavior. So I was just curious because I know when you were dating Sawyer's mom, you've described that you knew that she had a different political ideology than you,but that you didn't care.

Dr. Chloe: You said, whatever, she can be one way. I can be another politically and we can just be together and we love each other and that's fine. And frankly, I think that's beautiful. But on the other hand, when people are partnering and having kids together and establishing a life together, there can actually be an importance of having common values. So I was just wondering, when you went through the next round of getting married, again, first marriage, but next round at partnership, how was your approach different? Did you do premarital, like, questions, if you don't mind sharing? 

Harrison: Well, we definitely align on all of our values and political ideas, and she's just absolutely incredible, and I just felt so divine when I met her. The chances of it were just so unlikely, and it's just yeah, I mean, she's just a wonderful human that we sort of have the same goals and values and want the same things for our family and kids. And it's just, that's definitely a much healthier, just positive relationship to align on those things. I highly recommend searching for that.

Dr. Chloe: Yeah, so you said it was unlikely. I actually work with a lot of people. One of my books is Dr. Chloe's Ten Commandments of Dating. So people always want to know how to meet the one. How did you do it? 

Harrison: Well, I always send it. So I live by the motto, Be Brave. And you know, I was in Arizona at Turning Point USA, I had done an interview with Charlie Kirk, and then it was in the morning, and so I was just hanging out at Turning Point USA all day, sort of hanging out with the film guys that I know, and just walking around all day and helping them a little, and I just saw this girl. I thought she was so beautiful, and I saw her in her office, and I guess I just flipped my hair and I walked right in her office. And you know, I told her she's incredibly beautiful. And I just talked to her for like an hour and laughed with her. And she ended up being in California two weeks later and we went on our first date and the rest is history. 

Dr. Chloe: Wow. That's awesome. I love that. I absolutely love that. So back to my list of questions though, that I had prepared for this, which is from what I've heard in your previous interviews, although you have full physical custody, your ex, Sawyer's mother, if she calls herself that, I guess, I don't know. What does she call herself? 

Harrison: She does. She calls herself something like that. Yeah. 

Dr. Chloe: She calls herself his mother, okay, even though she's non binary. I wasn't sure how that would work. 

Harrison: I'm not sure if that changes or how that works, but yeah. 

Dr. Chloe: Okay. So since you have full physical custody, how often does she sees, or the mother sees Sawyer? Is that in your control? And how, if she does see Sawyer, how do you handle telling Sawyer the truth while seeming not to trash his mom, because they know like on any subject whenever there's conflict between the parents that are no longer together, it's always a balance between wanting to like, tell your child the truth but also not trash your ex. But what if your ex is actually toxic? How do you walk that line? Feel us in, Harrison. 

Harrison: Yeah, well, you know. She sees him twice a week and not overnight and not alone. Someone else will always be there. And I think that's a great, there's some other safety precautions that I won't go into detail about as well, but, so that makes me more comfortable with it and as far as, you know, I don't ever say anything bad about his mom to him. I don't think it would do any good. I just sort of tell him the truth that  I love him. He's a boy. He'll always be a boy. And he doesn't seem to worry about that stuff anymore. 

Dr. Chloe: But what if he says to you, But mom says I'm a girl. Like, how do you walk that line between like, well, mom's wrong. Cause I don't know the right answer. I'm truly trying to learn from you. Cause I know that this is a hard topic between parents, whether it's about trans or any other issue. 

Harrison: Well, so like in that hypothetical case, right. He would already know that's not true. And I would just simply tell him, Well buddy, you're a boy, just like your dad, you're always gonna be a boy, it can never change. I would tell him like, Look, I'm a boy, I'm always gonna be a boy, your grandpa's a boy, always gonna be a boy, your friend's a boy, always gonna be a boy. And I would just show him examples of people that are boys and how that never changes.

Harrison: And I wouldn't like, be like, she's a liar, or like anything weird like that. I would just be like, it's just simply untrue, and you're a boy, and you'll always be a boy. And it's good to, you know, be thankful for what you are, which is a beautiful, brave boy. 

Dr. Chloe: Right. So he's four and a half now. I'm guessing that as he gets older, he'll become more cognitively sophisticated. Everybody has this, by the way, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Like there's already issues, you know, just about me and my life, for example, that I think about, okay, my seven year old one day might get older and ask me some pointed questions about X, Y, or Z. And I wrestle with like, how I might answer them.

Dr. Chloe: So I'm truly trying to like learn from you because again, I'm truly so impressed that at such a young age that you've had this incredible fortitude, not only to simply fight for custody in the first place, like we have such an absence of fathers, I think right now in our society, you know, much less to fight for this in such an uphill battle and in such tough circumstances. So, I'm not trying to be aggressive, but I do want to dig deep. 

Harrison: I’m happy to share. And I do think it's unfortunate that, you know, so many fathers outside the home that's clearly not working out well for children and their success in life. But I don't believe the narrative that it's just a bunch of dads just bailing. It seems more likely to me that the family court system is so unfair that, you know, a lot of these dads are really getting screwed in court, and they end up being like their kid's uncle to see them once a month, and pay a bunch of money, and it's just, it's really not fair, and there's no stats to prove, there's actually stats to the contrary, there's no stats to prove that a kid should default go with the mother. And so I think it's, we need to kind of reconsider that idea and really do what's best for children and follow the actual data on these sorts of things. 

Dr. Chloe: I a hundred percent agree. I do. So the pressing question then is as Sawyer gets older and kind of presses back to you a little bit more, just even sincerely as he's intellectually trying to square this. If he says, Okay, like I get it. You're saying I'm going to always be a boy, but mom says that I'm a girl. Well, does that make mom wrong? Like, what do you do in that situation? Have you thought about that? 

Harrison: Well, fortunately, I don't think he would ever believe that. I mean, he really has it instilled in him. I think he's kind of a rebel like me. He doesn't just buy what he's told. And likes to ask questions and things, which is great. So I don't particularly see that happening, but again, if that does happen, I mean, yeah, I would just have to tell him like, Well, your mommy's wrong about that one, buddy. Like, you're a boy. You always be a boy. You can't change that. Maybe sometimes people get confused or want to change that, but the reality is that's something we can never change. And it's something that we should, you know, thank God for that we are a boy and how amazing that is and look at how all the cool things we get to do because we're boys.

Dr. Chloe: Totally. Totally. I just want you to know, I think I'm rather aligned with your viewpoint. I just try to kind of think about things from the other side. You know, but yeah, I mean, as a clinical psychologist, the training that I had even was about the importance of, say psychology and medical studies including women, because our biology is so distinctly different that it was unethical to ignore it when we were looking at, say, clinical trials for drugs and things like that. And so obviously, you know what I mean? Like, so women are obviously different and not including us in certain clinical trials was actually seen as an ethical failure in the past. And so now what are we supposed, I don't know. Anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked with that.

Harrison: But it sounds interesting to be honest with you.

Dr. Chloe: Well thanks. Yeah. I do find it interesting, but so for people as well, maybe even specifically that are going through what you specifically went through, my understanding is that you prevailed in court, ironically, not because of this trans issue, but because of your ex and issue of felony child endangerment. I won't go into all the details. I read some online, but that it was something that really had nothing to do with this issue. And so although you prevailed, unfortunately, and please tell me if I'm wrong, unfortunately, your case is actually not a story of a father who prevailed in a fight over trans issues. It was a fight over trans issues that got one on a separate issue. Is that right?  

Harrison: So there's a lot more to it than that. Actually, that child endangerment and 5150 was a long time ago. It was when Sawyer was 20 months old and I had just started half custody. And that actually did not change custody, but that's how this all goes down and I, and to be clear to you, I did bring up the gender stuff and ask the court to roll on it this entire time. So, I do think it is part of it. I would also say that anyone that tries to force gender ideologies and abstract ideas onto children clearly has some underlying mental health issues in my opinion. 

Dr. Chloe: Amen. 

Harrison: Cause that's not a normal thing to try to talk to kids about. You know, they're just like, Oh, cars, football, hockey, fireworks, dogs. Like they're not into stuff like that. It doesn't make any sense to talk to them about that. But yeah, so that event you mentioned took place and I started noticing like all this weird non binary stuff she was trying to do and like in the Disneyland story and I essentially I got a temporary restraining order because his mom was harassing and defaming me with unspeakably horrible and untrue things about me.

Harrison: And so I got this restraining order. Even on the restraining order, I asked for the gender stuff to stop and I got this big trial ended up being a five day trial, just a long time for family court to give you all this evidence, right, from the child endangerment, the gender stuff, the restraining order, et cetera, and they kept custody 50 50.

Harrison: And it was at that point that I felt really devastated because I thought the trial was so one sided and it was like I had to do something, you know. I'd spent all of my money in the world to try to fight in court. It's so expensive for attorney fees. And then I decided I was going to tell my story and just see where that took me. And I'm super thankful that it sort of blew up. And I just did every interview I could. I went to the Capitol to fight the crazy anti-parent bills in California and, you know, put fight back against the gender stuff, even in Capitol Hill. Then when this new event took place, it ended up awarding me full custody.

Harrison: I of course brought up the gender stuff to everyone involved and actually the family court didn't give me custody. They denied my ex parte on another violent incident, which is actually far worse than that first incident. And it was CPS in San Francisco, California, that 100 percent did their job, stood up for child safety and best interest, put politics aside. Like literally did a really thorough investigation and proved that they did not care about politics and that they cared about children is very impressive because you hear all these horror stories about CPS, but they were really the heroes in this case in San Francisco, California. So I just really think they deserve credit for what they did because it was incredible and the mom tried to bring politics into it and lies about me and everything. And it just, they really did their job. I'm just super thankful. 

Dr. Chloe: Yeah. So do you feel like the media spotlight helped to pressure San Francisco CPS to realize like, hey, we can't just jerk this guy around?

Harrison: That's definitely a possibility. And I did let them know that if anything happened to Sawyer that I would seek litigation against them because it was the third time they had been contacted about him, none of which were by me, by the way. So. 

Dr. Chloe: Well, it's interesting again as a psychologist when we're dealing with abuse victims. One of the first things that the abuser will try to do is to isolate the victim and the abuser doesn't want to be seen or known. And so the more that the victim can get accountability and get eyes on the situation, the more that it helps that person. So you know, not that you see yourself as a victim ever, but as you said, men can actually be victimized in the family court system quite a lot. And so the fact that you were able to get a lot of eyes on the situation, I think was actually very great that you did that. How did you do that at that turning moment when you said, okay, I'm out of money. I think I better just, you know, go to the media. How does a 20 something year old decide that he's going to get the media on this? Like, do you mind sharing what you did?

Harrison: Yeah. Well, you're sitting there, you're heartbroken. You're like, wow, I finally had my chance to say what I wanted in court and show them how crazy this is and how Sawyer would be so much safer with me. How did they not? How could this happen? How would they not pull in my favor? And you're like, you just sit there and you question everything and you have all these doubts and what ifs and fears. But there's something inside you is just burning that you have to do whatever it takes. And that if you believe and really believe and manifest it and really give it your all that you can do anything.

Harrison: And you just keep that fire burning inside you. And I reached out to every possible person I could think of and the Daily Wire ended up taking my story for whatever reason and breaking it. And Matt Walsh and Mairead Elordi there and they broke, they did this whole, I mean, they took their time, they verified everything, and then they broke my story and I didn't know what that meant. I've never been involved in media or politics or anything, you know? But it ended up just being a huge blessing for me. It opened up my life in so many ways. Just having the courage to speak publicly in spite of that being very scary and vulnerable and terrifying. But when you have courage and do things anyways, do the right thing, no matter how scared you are, your life opens up just in ways you can't even imagine.

Harrison: And I've just met some of the most incredible people. They're really supportive, real people, real friends. And I've been part of this movement of protecting kids and parental rights. And just seeking truth, really. It's just wild that you, when you have courage and do the right thing and fight for truth, like your life really opens up just in ways you can't even imagine. So I'd really encourage everyone to just find it within themselves, to say what they believe, to fight for what they believe, to definitely fight for your kids, if that's on the table. There's no one more innocent and wonderful and amazing than children of the future, the most vulnerable amongst us. They deserve protection. And you have to find that warrior piece of yourself, that piece of yourself that's braver and stronger than you ever knew you could be. And you have to just become it, be who you're meant to be. Don't sit back and waste your potential and always wonder what if. You have to go for it.

Dr. Chloe: Yes, that's so true. It was actually my own child that prompted my own journey out of the box. So I was living in New York City. When I was 20, well, when I was eight, I told everybody I was going to live in New York and be on television. And then when I was in my early twenties, you know, I moved to New York and ended up getting a PhD in clinical psychology and did a fair amount of  Inside Edition and VH1 and good television, as a psychologist I had a pretty good life there.

Dr. Chloe: Then it was during COVID in 2020, I had a three year old and now he's seven. But you know, he'd been home with my husband and me for most of his life. Well, all of his life, you know, but we had planned that that year of 2020 in the fall that he would start a preschool when he was going to be turning four, because it was the right time we felt for him to begin group socializing in that way. And of course with COVID the director of the school we had planned for him said, you know, he's going to have to wear a mask and everybody around him will wear a mask and all these things. I was like, Oh, as a psychologist, I said, I just, that's going to be his first experience out of the home. Nobody can see his face and he can't see anybody else's face. Like, that's what's going to be at three years old. But at the same time, we couldn't continue to keep him home because the lockdowns were so intense. Like even going to the grocery store, people were like double glove, it was like a post apocalyptic scene.

Dr. Chloe: I never ever imagined I was going to like leave New York. But that was it. I remember just like practically hyperventilating and telling my husband, we have to get out of here. We have to leave. And I wrote this blog about the harms of masking children. And I was like, why is nobody else talking about this? Like there's self esteem issues. Like if adults don't respond to their smiles or frowns, but they're rather pre-verbal still, like how will that affect their identity? Of course, everyone talks about the language issues, like there's so many issues. So I was like, how come nobody else is talking about this? So I sent the article to some colleagues first and I said, am I like missing something obvious here because I don't wanna embarrass myself , you know, like why is nobody else? Like it's just some duh moment that I'm gonna have right after I hit the publish button. And my colleagues gave me the honest response. They said, no, no, no, everything in your article is correct. It all makes sense from the scientific perspective, but we really discourage you from publishing it. 

Dr. Chloe: And I said, why? And they said, because it could discourage people from masking their children. And I'm like, okay, this makes no sense. Like they're agreeing with my article that masking children seems to be a harmful idea, but they're discouraging me from sharing it because it could just, people might not mask their kids. So we up and left, like seriously within 30 days, like we moved to Florida. And after I got here, I shared that article. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, Jack Posobiec, all these people like retweeted it. I went on the Tim Pool Show, like all these things started happening. That was why the next kind of wave of writing I did, and I’m still in to it, ia about the mental health benefits of free speech, of exactly what you were saying about just the importance of saying what you believe and standing up for what you believe. 

Dr. Chloe: It connects to the right kind of cognitive elaboration. Like we think more clearly and we're less vulnerable to groupthink and all these things. Anyway, I don't want to go on a total sidebar about it, but I wanted to tell you that I really agree with just what you're saying about that when you have something that's really troubling you, it's important to stand up for it. And you talked about that, like every fiber of your being feeling. I just wanted to say as well, the healthy function of anxiety is to stimulate preparation behaviors. And the healthy function of anger is to stimulate boundary setting behaviors. So in both cases, you might've been feeling anxiety and you might've been feeling anger. And in both cases, you channeled it into some really constructive behavior.

Dr. Chloe: You didn't just say, well, I'm going to go get into bar fights. You know, you said, well, I'm going to get into legal fights. I'm going to fight not only for my son, but for the legal system everywhere. I mean, what prepared you for this Harrison? How did you end up responding to such an adverse situation in such a powerful way? Like, do you have any sense of like what your biggest challenge in life was before this or like what your parents taught you about life? Like, how did  you get to handle the situation in this way? 

Harrison: Well, I always grew up a rebel and I think that I've just always been the eternal optimist, Mr. Brightside. I've always had that in me. Always see the glass just completely full and always believe I could do anything. I think my parents helped instill that in me, but I just feels like something that if there's one gift I have, it's just always, it's been just this Mr. Brightside attitude about everything.

Harrison: And I just always believe I can do anything and just to see the positive in life. I think that something about that and who I am just really gave me the ability to handle this situation

Dr. Chloe: Right? Well, amazing. So I just have a few more questions for you. And then, you know, obviously, if there's anything that I haven't asked you and you want to share it, by all means, you've got the floor.  Just a few other questions I had for you. I'm curious, I know that you're a musician. So by all means if you want to give a shout out to whatever is the best way for people to listen to your music and anything else that you want to share, but I'm curious how, if at all, how has this affected you in the music industry? 

Dr. Chloe: Because I feel like in general, in the arts it's a very left leaning space. I see this as somebody, as I said, in New York City that does television, you know, like it's. It's pretty, you know, militant in the ways of the viewpoints that are allowed. So has this affected you in the music industry and or in your day to day life? And one third kind of want to throw in there is have you ever changed anyone's mind about this issue? 

Harrison: So as far as music goes I love writing songs and putting songs out there. It's not like my career, so to speak, but I love it. I'm always going to do it. I've faced no backlash. I mean, there's a song I wrote for Sawyer called It's a Boy that I submitted to California Music Video Awards and they got some something for it. So they clearly didn't care about politics at all, even though it's San Francisco based. 

Harrison: My everyday life, I tend to just meet all sorts of incredible people in the Bay Area, California, and all of them think that, you know, there should be no parents secrets kept from parents at schools. All of them think that there should be no boys and girls sports, and all of them think that children can't consent to puberty blockers and surgeries that do irreversible damage. That's what I noticed. I've definitely changed some people's minds on some issues. I'm always happy to speak to people that don't agree to me. And I also just think my story really brings hope to a lot of people and I'm so thankful for that. And there's nothing that's better than uplifting other people. Honestly. 

Dr. Chloe: Totally. Yeah. Sorry. I know I said that was my last question, but I got one more. Are you a person of faith or spirituality? Cause I know that can be a big resource for people when they're going through hard times. 

Harrison: Yeah, I'm a Christian. I believe in God and that definitely prayer and everything definitely helps get you through this.

Dr. Chloe: Well, thank you so much, Harrison. If there's anything more that you want to share, you've got the floor, or if you just want to tell people how they can follow you and learn more, or as you said, if there's people that want to have a discussion or maybe they think differently or whatever, like what's the best way for people to find you?

Harrison: Yeah, you can find me on Harrison Tinsley on all social media and check out my music or message me about politics or going through family court. I'd love to respond to anyone. It really, really means a lot to me that so many people have supported me and Sawyer, it's honestly just incredible and mind boggling that so many people are that kind.

Harrison: I have a GiveSendGo.com/savingsawyer to help for attorney fees and things with Sawyer. I'm working on starting a nonprofit called Courage For Kids to help families in this sort of situation. I just really think that right now is this time, this moment in history where we're making a difference. This gender ideology stuff's going to stop, I think, just like it's stopping in Europe. You see it right now with the Cass files, etc. A bunch of countries are banning it. Some states are banning it. 

Dr. Chloe: Can you say what the Cass files are for people that might not know? 

Harrison: Yeah, so it's a big, like, study out of England from a lady with the last same Cass, I think. And basically, she went into the study on the pro side of sort of transing kids or hormones or puberty blockers and stuff. That was sort of like their baseline, but as they studied it all and searched it all in really great number and detail, they found out that, wow, this really isn't working and it's actually doing more harm than good.

Guest - Harrison: And so they reluctantly actually put that truth out there, which is very brave and noble of them. And, it sort of was like the startup of stopping it, child transition in any way in Britain. And it's just an incredible thing to see because they went into it trying to prove the opposite and the truth prevailed and the truth is going to prevail here too. This stuff's going to end in the United States. And we're going to all have to look back and say what we did in this time. If we spoke the truth, if we stood up for the children, our grandchildren, and I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to save the kids. I just know that in this battle, this war on children, like, it's the correct side to fight for innocence and to fight for truth and for love, you know, there's boys and girls, and I really think kids deserve just to be innocent and to be loved. 

Dr. Chloe: I agree. I mean, and just to like rest a truth. I mean, as a psychologist, one of the most important and fundamental aspects of mental health is a grip upon reality, right? So like we think about mental health disorders oftentimes as being on a spectrum from psychotic to to borderline to neurotic. And psychotic means a break with reality. Borderline is like you're generally in touch with reality, but you also have these like wild, incredible mood swings that are often driven by beliefs that are kind of outside of reality. Like you and I are relating and we're getting along fine. And then just suddenly for, you know, a few days I feel like you're my worst enemy and I go off on a thing and then I come back. And so that's the borderline type sometimes in a nutshell. And then the neurotic is what I call like your everyday New Yorker, you know? 

Dr. Chloe: So I just think that by undermining a child's sense of reality about this basic truth about boys and girls, I mean, in fact, I even looked up the etymology like of the word wife, and it goes back to the word woman and even the root of the word woman, it goes back so far that it's apparently hard to trace. Because it's just been such a basic, you know, known for such a long time. And so I agree that it's counterproductive, but it's so incredible that. I'm embarrassed that it's, honestly, a lot of psychologists, it's people in my field that are the worst offenders. And you use the term irreversible damage, you might know the book by Abigail Schreier called Irreversible Damage. Great book about the trans issues. And so Abigail, as you may know, wrote another book called Bad Therapy, which is another excellent book, and it's all about essentially like the harms that a bad therapist can cause by dragging out or magnifying a minor incident into a major trauma in somebody's mind.

Dr. Chloe: Sometimes all for the purpose, essentially of stringing them along to pay a lot of money to that therapist consciously or unconsciously. Sometimes might be, or that the therapist has like a savior complex or whatever. So anyway, I wrote into the listserv about this book of psychologists of it's a pretty, good listserv of educated and successful psychologists and it was almost stupid to be honest, because I've basically stopped participating in most psychologists listservs because I've come to realize that, like, they just don't see life the way I do. And they're just gonna mislabel me in all kinds of ways. I just, in order to manage my own energy, I've generally try to just stop participating in what I feel is not a true discussion, but I couldn't help myself. I wrote into the listserv in good faith, and I was like, Hey, has anybody seen this book, Bad Therapy by Abigail Schreier? It's so good. I wonder if anybody here has thought about any of these issues. And within 30 minutes, probably less. I got several replies on the thread saying that people would never even consider reading that book because it's by that transphobe, Abigail Schreier, because of her you know, book, Irreversible Damage.

Dr. Chloe:  I've been fighting the urge to write in there again now, this is months ago. And so I've been fighting the urge to write in again now about, as you said, the Cass study and the fact that now the United States is a total outlier for continuing, you know, these gender mutilation surgeries on kids and for telling girls and boys that they can literally change gender. Not that they can just do a crude approximation visually of the opposite sex, but that they'll never actually be the opposite sex and that they won't even actually really look or sexually function like the opposite sex, that the United States is the only place that's still telling these ridiculous lies to kids.

Dr. Chloe: And the Cass study, as you said, is proof of that. I don't know of another nation that's on our level in terms of advancement that is still perpetuating these insane lies, not only upon kids, but upon the parents. I feel almost the worst for because, you know, I know how to answer back as a clinical psychologist. If somebody were to try to tell me that about my child, I would know how to answer back and I'd feel confident doing it. But I feel really bad for parents that don't know how to answer back. And so some psychologist is telling them, would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son or whatever? And they honestly don't know. They're getting emotionally blackmailed. So I truly feel bad for them. 

Dr. Chloe: With that, Harrison, I know I keep saying one more question, but I feel like wonderful people like Abigail Schreier have taken the lead on that, and I'm so thankful to her, and Jordan Peterson has done great things. The reason I haven't spoken out more about it myself is because and again, to be honest, as I'm speaking to you, I feel a little silly for saying this because as you said, this is the time that people should be brave and speak up, but I guess I just honestly didn't feel like my voice would really matter because there's so many other, like bigger, louder, more important voices that are saying this, but I don't know.

Dr. Chloe: Like, to be honest, I think a lot more of an expert on this domain, obviously, than I am. If you were going to suggest to me as a psychologist, like what I can or should do, what should I do? 

Harrison: Well, first of all, Abigail's books are both phenomenal, and I'd encourage anybody to read them, as well as Jordan Peterson's work. But I would say I'm just a normal California guy, with long hair and my skinny jeans. And no one would ever think that I would be a voice that would matter, that would make a difference, but here I am, and I really think that your voice does matter, Chloe, and that when you do speak up, and when you do post on those psychologist forums, I think that I really think you can make a difference.

Harrison: I think it takes every single one of us. Every single person is affecting the universe, changing a million different ways of miracle frequency. And I just, you got to believe in yourself that you can make a difference because we all can. And it starts with you. You got to change yourself. And be courageous yourself. And once you do that, you'll uplift other people. You'll get a couple of psychologists to see the truth. You'll get a couple of people that'd be brave also. finally speak with, you know, the truth is to them, what they believe. And you'll just see that the more and more you do it, the more and more it happens.

Dr. Chloe: Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. Again, that's why I'm pushing right now about free speech and mental health and why it's just so important to speak out, Harrison. So thank you for that encouragement. I bet you didn't know I was going to try to ask you for advice today. I didn't even know I was going to, but thank you. So one more time, like, what's the best way, like, if you can, like, we'll post some links, but in case people are listening, but not on their screen, what's some good links for them to try it when they have a moment? 

Harrison: Just look up Harrison Tinsley on any social media or Google or anything, you'll find me. And I have a GiveSendGo.com/savingsawyer and I'm starting up Courage For Kids. But yeah, it's easy to find me and I appreciate all of you so much. 

Dr. Chloe: Awesome. Well, Harrison, thanks again for taking the time to speak with me today. It was really uplifting. 

Harrison: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Dr. Chloe: Take care. Thanks. Bye.